Falsely accused of owning a Prohibted gun, do not pass Go, go directly to jail!

I received a nasty call from the CFC years ago. The lady was irate on the phone as I apparently had a Smith and Wesson Model 19 with a 2" barrel registered to me and I was not not 12(6). The gun would have to be turned in for destruction as I was in criminal possession of a prohibited firearm without the proper endorsement on my PAL... After listening quietly to the lady I informed her I did not own a Model 19 with a 2" barrel. After about 30 minutes we established that the Model 19 belonged to some guy in BC and they had registered my 617 with a 6" barrel to him. Just a little error...

Another example is the crap I went through to register a AR15 lower received (stripped) as a complete 16" barreled rifle. Took six years for the change to go through, by the time it did I had sold the uppers and it was a stripped lower again. Sigh.

Got a registration slip in the mail for a SKS one day after purchasing a Russian SKS two weeks previous. The serial number did not match any of mine. Turns out the CFC mis-entered that serial. I got the correct SKS reg slip and all was good. 2 weeks later I bought a SKS with that same serial number, what are the odds?
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2 guns from one....

My FN FAL has a serial number on the upper and a serial number on the lower. The registry, in its infinite wisdom decided to list both serial numbers on the reg cert. So now, I could split that rifle in half, get another unregistered FN and swap out the upper and lower and end up with two rifles legally registered to a single reg cert.

No, I have NOT done this. But in theory I could.
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Here are my two stories says Paulz

1. Similar to Suputin, I have a "mixmaster" FN. With an AR-15, the lower receiver is the "firearm", in the FN it is the upper. My reg cert lists the serial number on the lower. In theory, I may be legally liable for having an unregistered prohib, since the serial number on the upper (the "legal" firearm), is not the same as what is written on the reg cert.

2. Bought a Browning Cittori O/U shotgun from a guy at my club. Had infinite trouble (both he and I) getting it transfered. The serial number on the reg cert did not match the serial number on the gun. The nice lady at the CFC explained that the serial number should be a certain number of letters and numbers and should be located by the safety on the tang. The number on the reg cert had no letters whatsoever.

After much discussion, and search on the gun, we finally found a number stamped on the gun (hidden under the foreend) that matched the number on the reg cert. Note that the number on the reg cert was on the barrel, which is made to be easilly disassembled from the gun, and was probably a batch number or possible originally from another gun.

Now, in theory, the RCMP could (again) have charged me with illegal possesion, since the gun and its actual serial number did not show up in the database. In other words, my gun was officially no the gun on the reg cert. Likewise, if at any point in the past it had been stolen, there would be no way to trace it or prove it was stolen.

Gun Registry made of Swiss cheese?

According to them, the Swiss Arms Classic Green Carbine only comes in 454mm (17.9" barrel). The only Swiss Arms with a 363mm (14.3" barrel) is the Black Special.

Sawed off or not?

Legally purchased a Remington 870 that was previously registered and transfered into my name.
6 months later I received a notice by mail that the shotgun was being confiscated as I do not hold a prohib license and they re-classified my shotgun.
The claim was I "sawed" off the barrel.
The shotty was previously registered and transferred with no issues but some how the magical registry detected that I sawed the barrel down.
I can't prove I didn't they can't prove I did, but registry trumps.
With little help from the NFA or CSSA other than advice to buy a new barrel and get the CFO to inspect it. I did so and am now in the clear, but my old barrel that was "sawed off" was confiscated and destroyed.
Anyone with less of a fighting spirit than me would have lost the whole gun, I just lost a lot of money and time is all. Whole situation prolly took years off my life.
Magnum Peanut

Colin:
I think this might have been one of the shotguns modified illegally by the SQ and then sold off as surplus, the SQ did not have the correct authority to modify barrels.

Russian Nagant revolver, registered as a German Sig pistol

yes I have an enfield that they sent me 2 different registrations for,
one had the correct serial number listed as an Enfield
and the other had a little number sticker and a manufacturer name (GlobeCo)

I also have a No1MKIII* that was registered as a No1MkII*

And a Nagant M91/24 that has the manufacturer listed as SIG

The registry is full of errors

(Sig has never made a Revolver to my Knowledge, Colin)

Same gun registered twice

I purchased a Remington 597 VTR two months ago, received the registration card in the mail a couple weeks later and all seemed just as per normal. Today, the mail came with another registration card. At first I assumed that they just double printed it and mailed it off again and didn't think much more about it.
A few hours later I thought I'd just double check the info on the card out of curiosity. While comparing the all the info I noticed that the last 2 numbers on the serial number were different and incorrect on the new card that came.

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Congratulations, you are now the legally registered owner of, and therefore liable and responsible for, a firearm that you don't have, can't find, and can't produce for inspection if they ever want proof that you didn't give/sell/lend it to someone who isn't allowed to have one. If you are lucky, no 597 actually exists with that serial number, so no one can get up to no good with it while it is registered to you. If the CFC doesn't accept your explanation, your best bet may be to report it lost or stolen.

Visit by the Keystone cops of the CFC

I have been apparently randomly selected to have the CFO visit me to 'clean up' some firearms listed as unknown, for either make or model. I was shocked at the lack of knowledge displayed by both the chief firearms officer and his sidekick. They claimed that the program used had 94,000 types and makes of firearms listed. I would be surprised if there were 940 types and models of firearms listed, as they has a great difficulty locating any of the 'unknowns' in my possession. Two examples of the lack of knowledge displayed:
1) My original Wilhelm Brenneke rifle is not a Brenneke (according to the CFO), as 'Brenneke' only refers to the cartridge. The model of the gun (ito my knowledge, Brenneke did not have any model numbers for their firearms), again according to the CFO, is Bohler Speziale. Any one that knows German firearms will recognize that as the type of steel used in manufacturing th barrel. As it stands, I have the only Brenneke Model Bohler Speziale firearm in the world!2) A semi auto Voere 22 was almost re-registered by the CFO as an air rifle, model 22lr!
The lunacy went on and on for three hours, and the above mentioned points were not the worst. They now want to return to take photos of the firearms that are not in their program, which leads me to ask a question, should I allow this? I'm thinking that it would likely be easier for them to get some decent reference books and add the pertinent information that way.
One thing that really got me going was the way they handled the firearms. They were grabbing and handling the firearms by the barrels and metal parts. I don't know about anyone else, but I have enough respect for anyone else's firearms, be they the most expensive, or the most humble of firearms, not to handle them in such a fashion.
All in all, I'm not impressed by these guys.
-- MetricMan (CGN)

One rifle, two papers and 2 rifles same serial number

I have a situation where I have one long rifle and 2 registration #'s for it. When I first registered it they (cfc) put the wrong make on the registration, so I tired to have it change, well I got it change alright they (cfc) issued a new registration, so I have one rifle and 2 certificate's for it, I have tried but they (cfc) insist I must have 2 rifle's of differing make and the same serial number.

-- mosquito99

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I had a situation of 2 different rifles and same serial numbers.
It is frustrating trying to get them to grasp the concept that their system is wrong, and they are also.

-- jdman

Stolen gun reregistered and one not so stolen

story of our beloved registry in action.

On Wednesday, the police came to my house and seized my Browning Citori which I had purchased used in February of this year. A couple months ago, the CFC left a message to contact them with an extension number. After trying to connect with them for these two whole months (a story in itself) I finally got through on Wednesday and was informed that my shotgun had been stolen in Toronto in 2001. The police were at my door 2 hours later and took it away saying that most likely the gun will be destroyed. As I had no idea of the history of the gun and was completely stunned by the sudden turn of events, there really wasn't much I could do.

I have since contacted the gentleman I purchased it from, a fellow CGNer who has been very helpful and as flabbergasted as I. He informed that he purchased the gun the gun in 2007 and provided me with details of that transaction including a CFC file number. This shows that the weapon has been in the system since at least 2007 and has been registered to at least 3 different people.

This leads to the obvious question of how a gun stolen in 2001 can have been in the system unnoticed for at least 2 years and why I wasn't informed that the gun was stolen at the time of transfer. Two billions dollars spent on the registry and this sort of thing happens. As things stand now, I'm definitely out a fine shotgun.

-- squeasel (CGN)

One of my hunting buddies was called by the RCMP, or SQ, I forget which, and was told they had his shotgun that was stolen. My buddy quickly replied "it was stolen????" The cop responds, "yes sir, I have it right here"
It took my buddy 15 minutes to make the cop believe that his shotgun was not stolen, and that he was looking at it in his safe as they were chatting on the phone.

System crashes muck up data and double registered guns

There's been a few 'known' system crashes ... in which a 'undisclosed' amount of data was lost...
It happened to me once, when selling a non-restricted rifle that was registered in 1999... The girl on the phone said the registration # I had given wasn't in the system... When I insisted that I had the registration certificate in my hand, she put me on hold for a few minutes... Only to come back and said that she had found it... and wanted to confirm all details about the firearm [i.e. policy is to re-enter any missing registration certificate information]
I'm sure if the registration 'status' of one of your firearm was ever questioned in court... a good lawyer could most likely put enough doubt on the integrity/accuracy of the registry to get the 'charge' dropped.

I tried to have a gun that I bought at a store yesterday registered and the transfer was put on hold. Apparently there are 2 guns registered to the same Certificate number. How does this happen? Why aren't people accountable for wasting our tax dollars? If this was the private sector some one would be hearing about it. God only knows how long it will take to fix, mean while the store is paying interest on money for a gun they can't sell.

Bad data, duplicate serial numbers, wrong FRT information

Unfortunately the intent of verification is to uniquely identify the firearm, but that it turns out is impossible. A firearm registration certificate may be issued only for a firearm that (a) bears a serial number sufficient to distinguish it from other firearms, or (b) that is described in the prescribed manner." Then Regulation 1.1 says, "For the purposes of paragraph 14(b) of the Act, the manner of describing a firearm is by referring to its make, class, type, action and calibre or gauge." Those two combine to destroy much of the usefulness of the firearms registration system. A firearms registration certificate is useless, because it fails to uniquely identify a firearm because it may describe a number of other firearms. Serial numbers are re-used by manufacturers, older firearms may not contain any information at all. Information taken from a firearm that is not stamped into the "frame or receiver" of that firearm is untrustworthy, and cannot be used by an applicant to identify the firearm. (The majority of firearms have most or all of their identifying information stamped into the barrel, the slide, or some other uncontrolled, interchangeable spare part that may or may not have been part of the firearm on the day it was manufactured. Such data is unusable.) Even data stamped into the "frame or receiver" is unreliable, as it may be a "house name," or the name of an importer, or the name of a distributor, rather than the name of the maker. It goes on and on.

The Firearms Reference Table (nicknamed FaRT by its users) is a program that comes on a CD from the government that is both slow, doesn't contain all the firearms, and is frequently complained about by those that try to use it. Several users noted that it may never be complete, given the nearly infinite number of combinations and permutations of firearms. Other users indicated that it is complex as a result of attempting to make it forensically correct. For example, a FaRT search for a "Make: Fabrique Nationale" handgun, "Model: 1935," will often fail because the firearm is registered as a "Make: Browning" handgun, "Model: High Power" -- an equally valid description of the same firearm. That particular handgun, according to FaRT, may be correctly registered if any one of six possible entries for "Make" was used, and any one of twelve "Model" entries, making a total of 72 different ways to register the same gun. The other way happens too: e.g. three quite different rifles have been marketed as the "Winchester Model 70". The FRT disks are also perpetually out of date, and always must be.

(NOTE: Few people use the disks any more. Most dealers use the online version because it is updated daily. The RCMP tanked the civilian verifier's network. Now it is pretty much limited to dealers and a select few non-dealer verifiers working for clubs, etc and "official" agents. At one time the Liberals planned on making a fortune selling their FRT to foreign countries as a valuable crime fighting "resource." We all know just how successful they were with those sales.)

The Canadian Verifier's Program was all but shut down in 2002, and there are no verifiers within hundreds of kilometers of people even in major cities within Canada. The current registration system uses the Calibre, Class, Type, Action, Shots (magazine capacity), and Barrel length to help identify the firearm. All of those identifying entries can be, and often are, changed by the addition, removal and/or substitution of uncontrolled interchangeable spare parts. They are largely useless as features used for unique identification. Make, Model and Manufacturer as defined to be primary "identifying" information. As an example, one of the new registration certificates "identifies" a firearm as being a "Make: Savage, Type: Rifle, Action: Bolt, Class: Non-restricted" firearm. Comparing that information with the data on the Firearms Reference Table CD-ROM, we learn that the registration certificate is describing any one of 195 different firearms manufactured by Savage. Similarly, comparing the new registration certificate for a "Make: Smith and Wesson, Type: Handgun, Action: Revolver, Class: Restricted" firearm with the CD-ROM data results in the "identification" of the firearm as being any one of 276 revolvers manufactured by Smith and Wesson. few people are aware there are often two or more perfectly valid serial numbers on the same firearm -- and yes, that does mean multiple serial numbers on the "frame or receiver." The NFA had to send an expert witness to Toronto to clear up a case regarding two Sten submachine guns and two registration certificates. The guns were not registered using the original British serial number, a situation that baffled the Crown's experts. They were registered using a valid serial number applied well after manufacture by the French government. The French apparently did not like the location of the British Serial number -- which was on an uncontrolled spare part. The French number was on the "frame or receiver," and was therefore preferable for "identification." The Serial numbers of German military firearms -- which are very common in Canada -- are useless for unique identification, by reason of frequent and deliberate duplication. Iver Johnson revolvers share that problem, and so do many other firearms. On some firearms, the Serial number is hidden or not easily recognized as a Serial number. At one point, the Registry had over a dozen Walther semi-automatic handguns registered in a manner that showed the Patent number as being the Serial number. Serial numbers are often found on the replaceable barrel (a part that wears out), yet the reciever is the official 'gun', not the barrel. Many firearms have no Serial number at all, because the law, at the time and place of manufacture, did not require the manufacturer to stamp Serial numbers on that type of firearm. Some military surplus firearms have no Serial numbers because a government ordered them made that way

If, on any day after the issuance of registration certificates, the owner moves to a new location, emigrates, or dies -- and no one tells the Registry -- all firearms certificates in the name of that person are still in the Registry, but they have become meaningless. The firearms are "gone guns". The NFA's best estimate is that somewhere over 30 per cent of all firearms recorded in the Registry are ghost guns or gone guns. Those records are meaningless and useless. In Jan 2001, the registry admitted that of the 1,250,000 registration records in their system, at least 650,000 are meaningless -- and have now been recognized as spurious.
In the registration transfer system, the transferor has no way of knowing whether or not his "informing the Registrar" will actually result in the firearm being deleted from the Registry's records of his own holdings. He may still be shown on the Registry's records as still being in possession of a "ghost gun" twenty years after transferring the firearm -- lawfully -- to another. [C-15B s. 105, FA s. 23(c)] The Registry makes that error often, because the Registry is, always has been, and apparently always will be, riddled with errors, omissions, and duplications. As proof of that statement, please note that firearms dealers usually have 20 to 50 per cent more firearms in stock in the Registry records than they do in the store. It is utterly unacceptable to impose the Registry's defective registration record system on any owner, possessor, dealer or borrower -- and then criminalize him on that basis.

The law C-68 was known when it was authored to be so badly written and riddled with things that wouldn't work, that it was peppered with 'prescribed' and 'regulation', so that any part of it may be overridden by orders in council to fix it when the rules turn out to be unworkable, as they so often have been. Criminal law is our most serious law, and yet using regulations as part of law has side effects too. e.g. R v. Rusk (Saskatchewan Provincial Court in Prince Albert, Jun 2 2000) dealt with Regulation 4, in the "Storage of Non-Restricted Firearms Regulations." However, the Regulation they were looking at became null and void on 01 Dec 1998. It was part of a set of Regulations that had been superseded by a new set of Regulations that were made in Mar 1998, but did not come into force until 01 Dec 1998. The offence in question took place on 04 Aug 1999, so the new Regulation -- 5, not 4, and with differing wording -- should have been the subject of the trial. Apparently no one -- Crown, defence or judge -- was aware of the fact that they were looking at an invalid Regulation. How can a citizen know what law is in effect, when lawyers with a duty and the time to find out the law, don't notice it either.
Even the head of the registry has no idea what's in his system, and how to get information out of it. The Registry sent a sworn document to the Crown prosecutor saying that a careful search of their data base for "Chinese machine gun, calibre 9mm, Serial Number 001120" showed that the gun had never been registered. Another certified document was sent to the defence lawyer in that case. It was a certified true copy of the Registry's copy of the registration certificate for that particular submachine gun. Both documents were signed by the same man -- the head of the Registry -- on the same day. A danger of error and resulting injustice arises from the combined incompetence of those who initiate and those who process search requests. Police don't trust the paper registration certificate when its handed to them, and check the 'official' source, the database, which even the head of the registry can't use with any certainty.

Wrong name and guns still in their name but owned by someone else

o, I had a couple of guns to register and I decided to use the online registration and telephone verification process. I end up waiting about 15 minutes for a verifier. The verifier turns out to be some French lady who speaks passable English. I tell her what I have: a Gevarm .22 semi automatic and a Winchester Model 94 in .32 SPL I'd like registered. She asks me for the model number for the Gevarm and I tell her it is a E-1, its not stamped on the barrel but I discovered this through other sources. The nice French lady than tells me this isn't possible and I have to have the guns on hand if I want them verified I insist that I have the rifles right in front of me. She then asks me if they are loaded.. WTF, of course not. I then read her precisely what is stamped on the barrel carbine automatiqe Gevarm et.. So, she gives me the reference table number and her info which I madly type into the online registration form as I can hardly understand her and want to make sure it will accept the info. She ends up transferring me to an English speaking gentleman who helps me overcome the errors I had made on recording her info with the language barrier. Fine, hang up, continue with the form. Winchester is registered fine. but my Gevarm is now a single shot Huntington & Richardson .22. At least the serial number will be correct.

Cool how your Gevarm didn't compute, but a Huntington and Richardson did.......considering there is no such thing.
Harrington.

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I'll bet if all the mistakes and mis-registered firearms were ever known, the Registry would be laughed out of existence in a week. If you want a real amusing day, try registering a customized military Mauser that's been re-barreled to a different caliber!

When I tried it, they said "But they never made that rifle in that caliber ..."

Apparently the ability to re-barrel and change a firearm's caliber is lost on the CFC.

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I just received an official printout of my registered guns as of Sept 19 2009
There are 7 guns still registered to me, including a handgun, that I have sold and transferred and have the "seller" letter to prove it.
Nice system.
That handgun was sold around Christmas time and the guy has been shooting it weekly at Phoenix Range.....and apparently it still belongs to me.
-- huntinstuff, Location: Alberta, on September 23, 2009